Trapped by Societal Pressure: Rachel Sorensen on Parenthood Choices + Pesto Polenta Brunch Recipe

In this introspective episode, Rachel Sorensen, LMFT, mom of one, and co-founder of Sorensen and Schiller Family Services, joins Reesa Morala, LMFT, to discuss the deeply personal journey of deciding whether or not to have children. Rachel opens up about the societal pressures she faced to follow traditional life paths and how she navigated the internal conflict between her authentic desires and ingrained expectations.

As they dive into parenting insights, self-discovery, and breaking free from norms, Rachel also shares her go-to Pesto Polenta Brunch recipe—a comforting dish that’s perfect for bringing loved ones together.

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💬 What's been a parenting challenge you've faced? Share your story in the comments!
🍴 Tried the recipe? Let us know how it turned out!

Find Rachel at: http://www.sorensenandschillerfamilyservices.com/

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Pesto Polenta Brunch

INGREDIENTS:
Pesto (can either buy a store bought one or if you’re going to make, you need basil, pine nuts, salt, pepper, lemon juice, garlic, and olive oil, parm cheese)
1-2 eggs
Kosher Salt
Pepper
5 minute polenta
Parmesan cheese, grated or can grate fresh
Italian seasonings (couple of dashes)
Grape tomatoes (just a handful) and/or any other veggie you have on hand (asparagus, mushrooms, peppers, etc) all work
Mini baguette or any kind of crusty bread

INSTRUCTIONS:
1. If using store bought pesto, skip to next step. 
2. If making pesto, put all ingredients into a food processor or blender and blend until smooth.
3. Get frying pan prepped with oil or oil spray. Make eggs over easy. 
4. Once eggs are in pan, move to side and add veggies of choice to pan (salt and pepper them or use everything but the bagel seasoning). Roast veggies till warm/tomatoes till blistered.
5. Heat polenta according to instructions. 
6. When complete, add in Parmesan cheese per your taste, 1/2 tbsp Italian seasonings/parsley, dash of salt and pepper (less salt if you put more cheese).
7. Assemble polenta, veggies and egg in a bowl/plate. Top with pesto and enjoy!

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Disclaimer:
Please note that the content shared on this podcast channel is for informational purposes only and does not replace professional therapy or mental health services.

If you are facing a crisis, seek immediate help through emergency services or a crisis hotline in your area.

The opinions expressed by contributors are their ow

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Host: Reesa Morala, MA, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist. Reesa is a couples counselor for parents providing therapy in person in Murrieta, CA and virtual couples therapy in California. Find Reesa hosting couples and parenting workshops nationwide!

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For the video version of this episode find us at: https://www.embracerenewaltherapy.com

If you are a parent ready to share your real-life parenting struggle and dish up a recipe with Reesa, apply here:
https://www.embracerenewaltherapy.com/real-family-eats-guest

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Transcript

0:00

Oh, well, if I say I'm doubting it, does that mean something is wrong with me? Does that mean, like, are people going to assume they're like, maybe I'm not really going to be a great mom Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining me. My name is Reesa and I'm your host. We are talking to real families about real stories here on the real Family, where we've got food for thought and thoughtful food. So let's eat, Hey, everyone. So joining us today is the lovely Rachel. Hi, Rachel. Thank you so much for joining us today. I am so happy to be here. So for anybody who doesn't know you, can you introduce yourself for us? Yeah. So my name is Rachel Sorensen. I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I work. I co-own a practice in the western suburbs of Chicago. Some probably, like, half hour from the city. So I see people in office. I also see people in Illinois, Indiana and Iowa virtually. I'm licensed in all three states, and I primarily work with people really of any age. Starting at like age 5 or 6 with really high anxiety or OCD symptoms. That's really my niche. But then I've been working with kids and teens and young adults on a variety of things also. For the last, you know, five, six years. So that's really, like my really exciting, like, I love working with those types of clients. And then I also do a lot of parent strategy working with parents on creating plans to, you know, parent with intention. Really trying to get parents on the same page with what their family goals are. So things that are really valuable conversations. But sometimes, you know just how busy life is. The conversations don't always happen as often. Or, you know, they don't always have a game plan, you know, in place, especially with how fast kids grow and different ages and different needs. So I do that a lot too, and I really enjoy that work also. So it's a little bit awesome. And a parent yourself. Correct. I hear myself. Yeah. So my daughter is about to be eight months old. So a new parent. So I can definitely relate to, everything I've ever talked about with any of my clients, I can. I have a real feel at this point, which is great. Right. You when you're in it right now? Definitely. I think this is I mean, from what everyone says, to like this is certainly the you're the most in it, you know, really consumed like they they need you so much and you are so aware of how much they need you. So a lot of your other priorities and needs sometimes take a backseat. You really have to try to make sure you're getting some sort of semblance of balance, because it is hard to do that if you're not aware of it. Absolutely. And that's that's the theme, right? This is hard. Yeah, exactly. Well, I was so excited. When you talk to me about, like, what this podcast is going to be and what it's going to be about, because I think that there's even even with a lot of there's so much content obviously online about like, parenting and how you can parent and you're the ways to improve things like all the time. And obviously, I mean, even right when I just talked about like having goals with parents, like all of that is super great and positive and it's great that people want to work toward that. But I also think there's a tality that like if you as a parent do something perfectly, then everything goes as it should, as it should. And that's because you're not doing some sort of formula of accurate way. And so it, it just treats kids like, well, really families like, they're formulas and, and if everything was just a plus B, it would all work out and I just don't. I think that's so unrealistic. But I think that's what you get said. Online all the time even from, you know, in well-meaning ways. But that's just what you see. So I think that this concept of really talking about some topics that people just don't discuss the real struggle, or they might talk about the real, they might say it's a struggle, but you don't really understand how or why. I think the solution a lot of late on a lot of topics, I think it'll help so many people. That's the hope. Because you're absolutely right. There is again, for for many it is well-intentioned, but not necessarily. Really kind of taking a look at what are the the issues that parents are truly struggling with, in real time and normalizing that struggle because it is really difficult and there isn't, you know, you talk about putting together a plan. Those are things that you have to kind of develop. Nobody you don't give birth or adopt or any of those things get given a child essentially, and a manual to go with it like any of your other, you know, maybe appliances that you get. And like you said, if you don't have that exact formula, it can be really easy to slip into that mindset that it's somehow related to you not studying hard enough or, not being knowledgeable enough in a failing on your part, which is just a really difficult narrative to kind of get unstuck from. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm so excited to chat a little bit more about your story. And, but first, I would love to kind of for anybody who's in that area who might be needing of your services, where can they find you? This is our shameless plug. Put it out there so that people can get your services. Yeah, so they can find me at w w w Dot Sorenson and Family services.com. So that's my website and my practice. Sorensen is spelled with e n not o n just okay. Does it clarify. You can also find me on Psychology Today if you want to read my profile. If you search Rachel Sorensen, and you can see the different therapy modalities I use, you can see, information about some of my previous experience things like that. So, those are perfect places to find me. Wonderful. And we'll make sure all of that gets linked in our show notes as well. So, if you didn't catch that, make sure to just click on down and you'll be able to see it there as well. So what is this recipe that you're going to be teaching me today? Okay, so I cannot remember where I originally found this recipe. Like it's something I've just made for so long. But I thought about it because I started making it when I was living in California, getting my masters in the program with you, University of San Diego. And so it was something I made all the time because, like, I was living by myself, it had like, protein. It was, you know, like gave me a lot of energy, but it was really comforting. And you can really customize it a lot. So like if you had leftover things, which is always easy to make. So it's a, egg over cheesy polenta with veggies and pesto. Okay. Wonderful. Well, I'm so excited. I have not actually ever, I like to cook a lot, and so, like, that's a that's a thing that. So, but I have not ever actually cooked it, so I'm excited or. I don't know if I've even tasted polenta, which is really strange for me. So I'm excited, but by itself kind of bland. But I use like, because it's bland. You can do anything you want, you know? So it's like any seasoning or any toppings. So it's very versatile. It's very, satisfying. Very cool. Okay. So can you get me started with some of the steps that I'll be doing here? And then I'll get things going here while you and I chit chat. Yeah, that sounds great. So okay. So you want to get your egg prepared first again? Okay. The things you need. Ready for the egg. And then, typically I make it just over easy. But if people also wanted to poach their egg or if they wanted to, do it, like over hard or whatever, you could do it lots of different ways. Okay. Fry the egg as per normal and then the polenta. You can just follow the instructions on the box. So I don't know if you did the instant or the longer one. But really you're just boiling water and then mixing in the, corn grits, and then you're letting that kind of simmer until it soaks in, like rice and then the veggies on the side you can season. And I like this too, because if you have, like, anything in your fridge from like the week before, you can just kind of use whatever you have. Season or whatever you want. And then at the end we'll combine everything and put some pasta on top. Wonderful. I can do that. All right. So while I get things going, I know one of the things that we were going to chat about today is you maybe had not necessarily the I been jumping to we kind of I've always dreamed of being a parent kind of yeah I'm in it you know I've, I've done this that's I'm ready to go kind of experience and which is not necessarily the traditional in the kind of again Beaver Cleaver kind of way that it's just kind of expected your you know, you have you have a uterus and so you're going to have a baby kind of deal and so I'd love to hear a little bit about your journey in kind of your walk through in that regards. Yeah. So, so yeah, when you had reached out, we were, you know, talking about topics. It occurred to me that, like, there's definitely so many topics about parenting, like you talked about earlier that are really important to discuss, but something that I had kind of gone through the before I'd gone through it and had really not heard anyone speak of it. And then afterward, now I hear about it all the time. Like now that I talk about it, I hear other people talking about it, which is interesting. And it's interesting. So it is this idea of like, really whether or not to have children in general. Okay. To your point, or to what you reference. So when I was like to my early 20s, you know, I think I was like, yeah, maybe I'll have kids, maybe I won't. I don't think I ever had this sense of like, I think I know there are some people that feel like they are really destined to be parents, like it is what they have thought about wanted, you know, from a very young age or younger age or it's something they've always kind of inherently known. And I never had this, like strong feeling that I would never have kids. I did at a point think like, maybe I won't really have any. I don't know if I want any in general. That was like my early 20s. It was not really my focus. I hadn't found a partner, so it was kind of this vague, like someday I'll kind of think about it, you know, wasn't really that that important feeling at the time. You know, trying is not top of mind. Yeah, not top of mind, you know, establishing my career. I was in school, you know, dating. It just wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, this needs to be decided upon tomorrow. So it's kind of neutral or ambivalent about it. And then I met my now husband and then, as you know, when we met and we were talking about, like, our future, I could definitely see it. I felt like, okay, like, he I would want to have children with him like that. I see our family, you know, picture in my mind, like, this feels like this would really be something like I want. But again, it kind of felt like, oh, in the future, you know, like when I'm when we're a little older, like when we've been married for a few years, like we'll kind of talk about it, figure it out. So it still didn't feel like this immediate decision, I suppose. Yeah. And then we got married in the fall, right before the pandemic, so we just slipped right on in there. And when the pandemic hit, it's kind of our conversations about it accelerated a little, like, what timeline do we want? You know, we maybe we don't want children right now because we might not be able to be in a hospital together, like, so. There was kind of this, I guess, more detailed discussion about timeline. And then with that. So I'll go ahead, I apologize. I'm just going to ask, like, is that a conversation that you were having, having ahead of time in that detail? Because I know you talked, you know, especially the work that you do that sometimes having those conversations that maybe you just haven't had yet and now kind of kids are already in the picture. We're having to have some of these conversations, and I and I feel like that's always a toss up that I hear with parents. They're like, oh, this is conversations that we've had before we got married or before, you know, we decided to really kind of commit to one another. And there's one that like, no, we didn't really have these conversations until much later in our relationship. Yeah, that's a great question. So we did talk about it before, getting engaged for getting married. And we both were on stage, like, yep, we want children someday. What we want to talk about in parallel conversations was really the timeline. Okay, I, I don't think we really had a detailed conversation about that prior. And then once we were married, like even a couple months after we were married, before the pandemic hit, we had a couple conversations about it because my husband was ready actually, right then was like, ready pretty much about marriage was like, okay, great, we got married. Now we can move on to the next goal. So the next one. Yeah. And I was the one who said, and we had the feeling like we like we haven't really had like any newlywed time together. Just the two of us. Like I want to have that. Like, that feels important. And then we definitely got that time with the pandemic, like living together and being together all the time, which is really nice in terms of that goal. But I think that's when I really had to start looking at my own kind of thought process on it, because then the pandemic kind of simmer down. We were vaccinated and, so a lot. And then. Right, we had all this time together. So a lot of the things that I thought were like, okay, this is what I need. And this is kind of what I'm waiting for to feel comfortable. We would then to have the conversation again, and I would just feel a lot of fear. I would get this feeling of like dread, and I didn't really understand it. Like I did not really know, like, right. I like in my mind, I thought I made this decision, so I don't know. I don't know why now. I still have these like physical reactions to it or why I feel so concerned about it. And, you know, in the back of my back of my mind. But I guess the things that I was thinking were also referencing what you mentioned, like, am I just doing this because this is like the expected next step, like, is this actually what I really want to do? Like have I have I only been picturing this because this is what I'm kind of told that I should be doing next, you know, not about my husband, but like societally, you know, that that's like your natural progression. Yeah. Is that is that kind of weird because I heard you mentioned the words kind of fear and drive. You know those are, those are big words. They're not just words for us to kind of gloss over. Some people are curious like for you I know maybe not in the moments, but maybe if you were kind of looking back, are you able to maybe, have some insight now or awareness kind of. What was what was the function of that, that you're in that dread or where was it coming from for you? Yeah, I think so. In retrospect, I think the feeling came from that, that like, hey, you have you don't have a lot of control of like what channel you have. If your body's physically healthy during a pregnancy, you know, if you're going to be even be able to get pregnant easily, like all of those things or things that like, you don't really think about until it's time, right, to like actually start trying to have a child. And so I think some of the fear was like, I just I'm not going to have a lot of control or a lot of certainty about what's going to happen to like me. Will my child be healthy? Like, I think I have some parents who have that, which I think all are normal. I think most people think about those things. Yeah. But again, maybe don't necessarily talk about how you think about that, like as you're trying to get pregnant, you're like just hopeful that everything goes well. And a lot of people, everything does go well. But a lot of people, you hear a lot of stories where things don't go well. And so, or there are complications or things that were unexpected. So I think some of my fear was that, okay. And I think my other fear that I had kind of determine, which is what led me actually deciding to have a child, is that I felt like I just didn't know how I was going to be able to manage everything. Like I felt a really big sense of responsibility that, you know, once you have a child, like they really are your priority in a good way. But they're my priority and I'm paying attention to them, and I'm really trying to tend to all of their needs. How am I going to, like, do anything else? Like how am I going to juggle the career? How am I going to juggle the household things we need to do? How am I going to make sure my husband and I still have time for each other? So it felt more like almost logistical worries that were kind of back. And so then that's what ultimately led to my decision to have a child, because those are all like solvable problems, right? Like those those actually have more to do with, like, how am I going to balance everything else? Because I want to pay attention to this child, then I want to spend time with this child. Okay. Not like, oh, like they're going to get in the way of all of these things that I want to do. So that makes sense. Yeah. So something it sounds like that you were kind of excited for. And so therefore there was, you know, more motivation to kind of maybe do a little bit more of that problem solving and saying, you know, this is something that maybe I am interested in making time for and then spending that focus on, and being able to kind of say, maybe it can be an and versus and, or it sounds like it's exactly hit the nail on the head because I think, yeah. And maybe it's because of having I mean, again, I think there is this societal pressure. I think it's changing a little. But I do think there's this societal pressure or narrative that like, okay, you, you, you know, you go to school and you go to school, you find someone and you date and you get married, or you at least find like a long time partner, then you have children. And like, those are your steps. And so I also was just, I think, fearful of making a decision that was just because of that and that more from an Intentional place. Why was that something that that was so present? As far as I don't want to make this decision because society tells me that's the decision I'm supposed to make, is it sounds like you were kind of really like fighting against that and like, no, you know, you're not going to tell me kind of what I'm going to do with my life. Yes. And I will say that is a personality trait of mine. I will say, I'm not shocked. It's funny. I actually hear you say that because, yeah, that like, adds up. Yeah, I, I think it, I think that that well, why I didn't want this. And I think that if you decide to have a child, you are deciding to take on whatever that means, right? Like you don't know what kind of personality your child is going to have. You don't know if they'll be like you. You don't know if they'll be like your partner. You don't know if they'll be completely their own individual. Like you have no idea. Right. And so your yeah, your job, your in my perspective is that your job is to guide teach like expose them to things in the world and really you're just kind of trying your best. You're trying to teach them these lessons and you hope that they take them and that they run with them. Right. But you don't really have a lot of control over that. And I think, I think there are people that go into parenthood because it's their next natural step. Okay. And like or and even and not even just, just parenthood, like they get married because it's the next natural step and this is just the timeline or. Right, this is the timeline for kids. And other people are having kids that they know. And so then you just have kids because the other people that you know of your age are having children, you know, and I don't I don't think that that's like so conscious. I don't think people are just deciding like, oh, I'm just going to do this, you know? No. Thought. Yeah. And I do think there is like this keeping up with the Joneses mentality sometimes and that that's just what you're supposed to do. And then, you know, I'm, I just don't. I feel like you'd be happier. I know I was going to be happier if I knew all the reasons I wanted to be a parent that way. Like, no matter what kind of child I had, no matter what ended up happening, I was coming from like my values based on it. It wasn't just, oh, I know other people right now that are having kids. And so I'm going to, you know, start now. That's why it was really important to me. And I also think then, like parenting is hard. So I think it's really easy to have a lot more resentment of like a child or the things you have to do if you weren't really, like, fully committed at the start. Yeah, I imagine so, like you said, because sometimes it does require some sort of sacrifice, whether it's sleep or, whether it's time, money, you know, whatever that is, there's there's some sort of, giving that we're doing to a being that's really only doing a lot of giving, not a whole or a lot of taking, not a whole lot of giving themselves rather. And so, you know, there are really hard decisions like use it to be made. And so, there in I feel like for most people, in order to kind of really have that buy in themselves, there needs to be some sort of like internal motivation of like, okay, I understand maybe why I did this or, you know, this decision that was made, to kind of continue and, and bringing them into the world, that's, that's, that's a lot to ask of a person. And so I can honestly appreciate where, you know, that's not really fair to ask of someone who wasn't, who wasn't willing or, you know, kind of had that buy in. Yeah, exactly. So, so I will say something that was super helpful. So I mean, I did I feel like so I, so I had all these thoughts, I had all these feelings and I was like, you know, I don't. And my husband, you know, I love him. He was so supportive. He was obviously like a biased party because he's because he's like, well, I want them, you know, and like, I'm willing, I'm willing, you know, to wait for your timeline if you give me like an actual timeline or if that's not in the cards for us, like, I just want to know, so then we can have, like, a different outlook of what we're going to do, but okay, know like what? But having kind of like, this vague idea is not like putting us on a page where we're having the same goals, right? Which is so valid. So I was like, okay, right. Like, I, I just keep spinning on this and spinning on this decision, I don't know. So I, you know, googled because that was what we all do. So I was like, you know, what do you do when you don't know if you want kids? And there was like all these different articles and posts and whatever. But I came across this book and I wish, I wish I could put a banner with this book. Like everywhere that everyone could see, it's called the baby decision. Okay. Do you know, do you know which by. Yeah. Moral bombarded every therapist and the book actually came out. The first version of the book came out in the very early 80s. So it's been around a long time. Oh, interesting. And I haven't heard of that one. I had never heard of it. And so and I like, read the description of it and it was basically like literally speaking to exactly what I was struggling with. Like, okay. Yeah. If you, you know, think you want children but don't know when if you don't know if you want to have children yourself or adopt or like, you're all of the scenarios, read this book. There are exercises. See what kind of comes of it. And so okay, great. Every chapter had information and it exercises and every chapter you could do it with yourself or a partner. Like both individually. Both together. Or just yourself. Yeah. Okay. Great. It led to like so much clarity about like, I do want children. I do have that as a value. It's just this feeling, like I was mentioning earlier, like, I don't I don't know how I'm going to balance everything. I feel like I'm so responsible for this child I want. I'm so it's so important to me that my child is growing in a happy, healthy environment that I'm worried that, like all these other demands I have, are going to take away from that. And so it just led to like, definitely an moment where I was like, okay, like, I actually I really do want this. It's that I just don't know what this is all going to look like. That feels very scary. Yeah. And but really, like if that wasn't a component, then this wouldn't even be like a default choice. Yeah. So it sounds like for you, it's very much some of that, kind of playing into it, which I think is so super duper valid because how many times a day do we as human beings kind of stray away from something because it's unknown. And so even though we're, you know, maybe deeply unhappy or unsatisfied, we go, why, at least I know this. I know what the end of the day is gonna look like in this, you know, unhappiness, if you will. But choosing something different or choosing to pursue your happiness is is scary because you don't know what the other side is gonna look like. Yeah, like you said, it's like, even if it's uncomfortable or, like, even if it's uncomfortable what you're doing, you still have the comfort of, like, knowing what to expect. Yeah. So it right. It's it is kind of like how do you push yourself to do something that you know, you want and you're just not going to know the outcome? I think that's true for a lot of people, a lot. To your point, like in your career, in like where you decide to move, where you go to school, like all those decisions. I feel like it's really similar. You could apply that to a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. So that was really helpful. And I, I will say I still think about like that book or the decision, like even after making it because there like you might like we talked about parent parenting is hard. Like especially right now I'm in the trenches. I'm certainly not sleeping right now. We're like in a little bit of a spirit of something or other, whatever. You can look online and there's like 3000 reasons, right? Every day we even that like, who knows what your actual child is, right? Yeah. You know, you know nothing. I have no information. Don't know why it's happening. Whatever. But I like at the end of the day or like in some of those tough moments, I always come back to like, okay, I know this is really hard, but, like this that I guess I have comfort in, like, this is so like the decision I wanted, like, this is this tough moment, but like, this is something that is really important to me. Like caring for her is really important to me, even if this is a really tough like day or week or whatever. So I feel like it does provide me with this anchor. Certainty, at least in like what I am doing and why it's like I depending on, you know, how she's doing. Because I was I mean, they're growing so fast and they change so much, like every day is so variable and. Yeah, like, so dependent on to if you depended everything on that, like you would not you couldn't handle it. That was like so challenging. Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I think that's really valuable to, you know, you mentioned a couple times here kind of that value driven, you know, way of thinking, you know, when reflecting on these really tough times, as a parent, like, can you say more about that and more about why for you, you found that it's been maybe more helpful in overcoming some of those times versus, like you said, if it's purely just for them, driven, if that makes sense. Yeah. It does. So so like my like even before having her family is really important to me. Like having having a strong family unit, having a family that like shows care and love for one another and is kind to one another like that's so important to me. And then having, you know, and deciding to have a child, I wanted to have a child to add a member to our family. Right. Not not with the expectation of, like, they're going to follow this little formula and like, everything they do is going to be so easy and smooth and perfect all the time. Like you logically know that that's not the case. But since I had made this decision based on my knowing, I wanted to like, guide a child and support them and show them a lot of love and care and like, that's my ultimate goal. And when these tough moments happen that I'm not, I guess I'm not expecting her to like act in a certain way in order for like myself to feel satisfied. Right. Like I'm not thinking, okay, well I'll only feel better if she, you know, does X or like everything will be peaceful if she just did Y, you know, because that's just not true. It's just not true because you just can't expect that, especially for her age, you can't expect that really, of, like, any child of any age. When that could be said for any human right. Like if you're saying I can only succeed, I can only move forward if this other person just kind of gets their act together, or if you will, you're going to be waiting around a really long time because humans are. I see it all the time. Humans are fickle creatures. Yes. So which is a good thing that I think that's how it helps me, because in times where like, for example, these last three nights, she has gone to bed and she's been waking up

at like 10: 32:32

00 for, I don't know, no reason. She just waking up. She won't really go back to sleep unless you pick her up and rocker for like, ten minutes, and then she'll go back to bed. But if you leave her, she's just like, protest. She's just, like, uncomfortable. I don't know why. Maybe it's time. Maybe she has a cold coming. Like it could be a thousand things. Right? Yeah. And so that's tough. Like mentally that's tough. You you're like, you already put her sleep. You're thinking you have some independent, like, alone time. You're getting ready. And she like knows my head like hits the pillow. And then she starts crying, you know, like they're, they like, have a sixth sense. Like. Yeah. And so sad because I know like in those moments I'm like, oh like okay. Deep breath I like she's going through something like I don't know what she's going through. She's having a hard time and I want, I wanted to have a child to like help them and show them love. Right. And like, I really this is why I did this. And so, yeah, you have to do that in moments that are hard. Not just moments that are easy. You know, it's like easy to like give love to a child when they're like laughing and like playing with you and talking to you. You know, she's not there yet. But like, when all that happens and they're like giving you hugs and they're like, telling you they love you. Yes, you can like, love a child very easily. In those moments, it's harder to stay calm and remember that that's like who you're dealing with when they're having a hard time. Like they are struggling, they're crying, they're upset. It's not that you don't love them in those moments, but it's just hard to put aside sometimes. Like the immediate frustration. Yeah, you're kind of long term value. And so that's where it helps me, because there's never been a question now ever since I made that decision of like, why am I doing this? Or like, oh, this is so annoying. Like, I should like, maybe I made the wrong decision, you know, like I never have those doubts, which I think even having those kinds of thoughts is normal. I'm not saying it's not, but I just feel like I have a more centered view of it, which I think for me it makes things easier when it's already tough. Yeah, absolutely. I would love to kind of circle back to that before, before you did make that decision to move forward in kind of expanding your family. And, you know, I'm really curious, did you, when you were vacillating and going, I don't know if this is really my value. And something that I want to do. Is it just because, you know, I'm feeling maybe that external pressure where there particular ways for you and your kind of journey that you were feeling, maybe some of that external pressure of, like you said, that this is this is the way it's supposed to go, that like what sources of external pressure I maybe felt. Yeah. Like where was that? Do you do you know, like where was that coming from? Or like what was helping kind of create that narrative for you? Yeah, I think, I think there was a little external pressure that maybe it turned into internal pressure. Like people around me starting to have children, like friends of mine, some family members where it kind of felt like, okay, if I want a child of ours to be raised alongside some of these people, oh, gotcha. You know, to kind of have similar ages like this would be potentially at the time. But I also think, like I'm from the Midwest and I do think, you know, I'm sure it's different depending on where you grow up in the United States. But in the Midwest, it's pretty typical that like you do follow this natural progression. Like you, you go to school, you get a job, you get married, you find a house, you have a kid. Like there's your those are your steps, like in sequence. And I really don't know. Honestly, I anyone from here that, like, has not really followed that trajectory. Like within my circle, which obviously could be like some skewed data. Yeah. So like you can't really say which came first, but it just it is kind of to me, it seems like this assumption that you're just going to and once we got married, I mean, people ask you about it all the time, like, when are you gonna have kids? When are you gonna have kids? No one ever really asks. You like, do you guys want to have kids? Like, are you planning on having kids and even that? Like, I don't know, people have to ask regardless. But the fact that they ask in general kind of shows like there's this assumption that you're going to it's just like when or what's going to happen with it versus assumption that like, okay, will you get married and maybe you'll live childfree, maybe you won't live child free like maybe you're right, maybe you'll adopt. Maybe you'll do something else. Like there's really not an inherent discussion about that. So like that kind of gives the vacuum some pressure where it's like, right. There's an assumption that it's happening. There is no conversation about like, have you thought about whether or not you want kids? Like, what are you thinking about with that? How are you making that decision? Like, it's not it doesn't get talked about, I guess, as if it's an active decision. It gets talked about like that's just happening. It's is the next thing your future. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I think which like I mentioned before, the interesting thing is like when I started talking to a lot of my friends about like struggling with this decision and not being sure a lot of them were like, yeah, I've like I've had similar doubts. I thought similar things. And like, nobody ever, nobody mentions it because it's just it's like not in the the line of communication. Yeah. Do you think had it been reframed that way, like you said, of, hey, you know, what have your guys's thoughts been on the kind of family planning? Is that something that you guys are discussing? Is that kind of oh, you know, that's not where we're going. Would that have one been received? Well, do you think for you and then two, would that do you think have changed kind of that feeling of external pressure because you think, you know, hopefully other folks that are maybe have have potential parents or people that are kind of in that same time frame as you were in their lives and you think that's such helpful? Information for them of how can we support from a way that doesn't necessarily put that external pressure? Because I don't know that anybody necessarily goes into it going, I'm asking these questions to be intrusive or to be pressuring. However, like you said many times, that is kind of just where our mind goes and it comes out that way, and it does kind of put this kind of construct on what your life maybe ought to look like. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think I would have received it well because I think it it opens up the conversation. Well, it opens it up where it's normal for you to think about it. Right. Like, okay, the whole theme of what we're talking about, like normalizing things. If someone had asked you, asked us or asked me like, oh, what are you thinking? For, you know, your future family, are you thinking of having children? Are you thinking of living like childfree? You know, say something like you've given thought to. Then I think it would have the next line or opening is like, oh yeah, like we haven't talked about it. I'm not sure I'm trying to make the decision. You know, it would have led to probably more honest conversation versus when the question is like, oh, when are you guys having kids? Like, are you trying yet again, these to your point, I think it's all lot of and actually kind of excitement. Like people are excited and hoping you have, you know, another family member that they get to love on and like it's it comes from such a good, kind hearted place. But it happens. It leaves this assumption that you've already decided you're going to have them. It's a matter of when. And so the conversation just starts off, I think, from a more closed spot. Because then you feel like, oh, well, if I say I'm doubting it, does that mean something is wrong with me? Does that mean like, are people going to assume they're like, maybe I'm not really going to be a great mom because I didn't go into it, like totally knowing, you know, I wasn't someone who is like 100% positive. So is that going to be seen as good or bad? You know, like if you decide to go, if you decide to move forward, that that could be kind of, you know, the judgment later. Yeah. Or like we're just like, it's on. And again, that might be more internal, but like because the assumption is that you're going to do it if internally you were unsure. What is that say about you. You know, like what does that mean. Yeah. And then right. Does that mean like you are not going to be as good of a parent or does that mean that, you know, there's like something wrong that you didn't know ahead of time that that was like exactly what you wanted? So, yeah. So I think it would I think I would have received that. Well, and I think if people talked about it more in that way, I think people could come to those decisions possibly faster, because I think it took me a while to decide because I was kind of on my own, you know, with some of my husband's support, but a little bit on my own thinking about, like, what I wanted to do without really knowing other people or even struggling with that, or that other people would have had doubts too, and that it's okay to have doubts. That doesn't mean anything more than did you have any kind of narrative for yourself that your brain was trying to kind of convince you? I have, if you will, if you had come to the decision of, I don't know if I do, maybe, maybe my answer is no. You know, was there something that was kind of keeping you from, from going there or that, you know, your brain was kind of telling you, if I did say no, this is what I would say or mean about me. I, I think personally, I wouldn't have felt that had I wouldn't have felt like anything was wrong with that decision. For myself, I think I, I think the narrative more so would have been like, what are maybe other people going to think about it like, is there going to be external judgment for it, or people going to understand that decision? That, yeah, I feel like it was more of the narrative is like, are people going to look at this as if this was like not the right decision? I think other I feel like sometimes too, I hear I heard this myself, but I, I've just heard it anecdotally through other people that like some people say, oh, like what if you regret it if you like, didn't you know, if you don't have them and then you wait too long, it's like, okay, again, like the feedback could be that I'm like making a mistake with like an intentional decision. And like unfortunate. I mean, unfortunately, like, you would never know, you know, if you'd regret it or not, but like that feedback from people, I guess, just doesn't that doesn't lend itself to you feeling like, confident in your choice. So that's more so what I would have been concerned of. That there would have been a narrative that I was like making a mistake from external parties. Yeah. And I almost I was like, kind of again, going back to this idea of is it a choice for you or is it it's already kind of written for you and you really have no say. And I can imagine if if it feels that way, that's I mean, I don't know anybody who likes to feel kind of powerless in decisions, especially when it comes to their own life and something that's so permanent, like a parent becoming a parent. Yeah. Well, and I think that's why it also felt so important to me because I'm like, there is no like, yeah. Like, you know, you can't return them. Like there's nothing you can do. Like you have. This is your life that you're choosing to set. So it just felt so important to me because I'm like, there's no other choice that you can't change, like in your life that you make like, you can change your job. You could change your partner like you could. You could change where you live. Like everything is really totally up to you. But once you have a child, that's your child. And like, that's your job and you've you've decided to take on this role. And I'm so happy I'm in that role now. I'm happy I came to that decision. It's been so rewarding even with its challenges. But I don't think I would have felt the same if I had just gone into it without really being methodical about it and a little on some of that's my personality. But I also think, again, it's given me they gave me a lot of clarity beforehand to kind of whether like all the things that I couldn't control afterward, I so maybe, it sounds like maybe able to kind of get to some of that, you know, quote unquote radical acceptance, maybe a little bit easier because there was a lot more of you in that decision than maybe everyone else. It sounds like. Yeah. And I think it's good to clarify, like we're in a I feel like we're in an age where you, you can really do a lot like, you have a lot of job flexibility. You can move wherever you want if you want to. Like there's I think people just have a lot more exposure to like different options, which I think is great, but also because of that, like you have all these options or you could like do this traditional route or, you know, you could do something in the middle. And I think it's just good for people to get clarity on, like what they really want their life to look like because they do have all these options, which doesn't mean like, again, like, I, I kind of did choose that whole path of like get married and not have the kids, like I did that, but I didn't do it just because that's kind of what was assumed. You know, I really I did it because I really know that that's what I wanted. Yeah. So yeah. So I hope that that helps people and, you know, again, I think it's something it seems like a lot more people are thinking about now, especially with timelines of having kids or like, right. You can also just have one kid. You don't have to have multiple kids. You know, things like that's a whole different conversation. Me but you know, so I think it's just helpful, hopefully that people can see that there's a lot of ways to getting to a decision. There's not like this one Beaver Cleaver route. Absolutely. And again, that normalizing it and that if the answer is no, how can we maybe have a little bit more of that, that compassion and that, you know, acceptance that we all have to make these decisions, like you said, for ourselves. And it's really not fair to kind of put our own expectations on somebody else when we're asking them to make kind of these life altering decisions or their life. Yeah, absolutely. And and if I mean, I think there are more people now that are deciding to live childfree and there's just nothing wrong with that. Like if people want to focus their goals on other things, they also might like be in these other roles where they can work with children or be with children. It doesn't have to be having your own children, like you could work in a school and be around children all the time and not want your own children, you know. Or maybe you want a child, but you're not ready right now. And biologically, like time wise, it doesn't work. So you adopt at a later time, you know, like, I think just even the time pressure is so much, you know, it's got to be within, you know, by a certain time. So that doesn't work for people. Like there are alternatives to that don't mean like the door is always it's either open or shot. You know, there's a lot of. Yeah, yeah. And that maybe it just does require some of that creativity like you were mentioning of what it looks like. And maybe it doesn't look like the Johnsons, as you mentioned. And that's totally okay. You get to kind of create your own life in your own family in whatever way that looks like. Yeah, exactly. That's really cool. Yeah. Is there anything kind of you're in this last minute that if you could kind of go back and tell yourself or tell any other folks that are maybe, in that position, I know you've already offered quite a bit of that for anything else that you would kind of offer to someone or offer to yourself back then. Yeah, I think I would have just approached it sooner. I think that like in my mind, you know, I have all this time and I'll just like figure it out later. But that kind of was like a clue that maybe I was avoiding it a little because I think that, like with most things in my life, if I have a decision to make, like, I'll just make the decision. Like I don't think that it's like I never make choices. So then okay with this one, since it like I kind of kept putting it on the backburner, putting on the backburner. I think that was a clue that I should, like, kind of turn toward it and I keep turning away from it. I would have gotten that book sooner, and then I would have talked to other times people about it sooner, too, because I think I started talking to people about it when I was really in the thick of like, what do I do? I'm sure, but I could have talked about it like even just asking people what they were thinking for themselves. And like, I could have done that, you know, way before. So probably just being more vulnerable about it before I was that I probably would have given myself that advice. I love it. Well, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for sharing that with us. I know I've got all my all my pieces and you've got kind of a, bready, kind of toasty, crunchy bread, that you've put on your list. How how do I construct this? There's I've got all my pieces. I put it together, and you put the polenta in your bowl first, okay? And then you put the egg and the veggies on top. Perfect. With the pesto sauce on top of the whole thing. Well, I'll boil, drizzle in the bottom. Yeah. And then the toast is for you to just, like, dip and eat some of the polenta egg mix all together. Wonderful. Well, I'm super excited to try this. Thank you so much for sharing this with me and your story. I think that such valuable information and like you said, a conversation that that needs to happen more often because there are it is a very big decision with, with life altering kind of consequences and, and normalizing that it's okay to kind of have, like you said, some of those struggles and not be like, oh, yes, this is exactly, you know what? I want my life. All of those variants and those grays like you mentioned are, are okay. And it doesn't mean that there's it makes you any less of a person. I think that's hugely valuable. So thank you so much for being willing to share that with us and being on our show today. Yeah, you're so welcome. I'm so happy to have been a part of it. Thank you so much. Yes. Well, thank you everyone for tuning in today. We'll see you next time. And if you or anyone that you know is struggling with any of the topics that we discussed in today's episode, make sure to check out our show notes for support and resources. You can get help. Thanks again for joining us on today's episode of The Real Family. Eat. If you're a parent ready to share your real life parenting story, make sure to reach out to us and our website found in the show notes. And that goes for today's recipe social media's support and resources. All of that can be found in our show notes, so make sure to check them out and make sure to follow, like, share, subscribe, and stay up to date on all things the real Family Eats. I hope you'll join us next time for more food for thought and thoughtful food. Enjoy your eats!